Calculations Again

**slotplayer** · 1 March 2012, 1:29 am

the player deposited $2k on the 27th of feb and made another $6k deposit on the 28th.

players traditionally make a second deposit once the first deposit is exausted so why is the gross revenue so low for the 27th?

There is no way this is calculating correctly.

Send me the code I'll debug it. or send me a list of everything you're deducting.

thanks

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**TheGooner** · 1 March 2012, 4:05 am

What this SHOULD NOT be is deductions - because the costs usually show up as a difference between Gross Revenue and Net Revenue (at least they seem to for me at BetFred) ...

But there IS a way that it is calculating correctly - but there is a field missing in order to really prove it - WITHDRAWALS.

There are minimal deposit fees for UK players at many UK sites - often none if they are using debit card facilities - and so that often creates a high churn / turnover level with UK players ...

Money will be deposited, played on, and then the balance withdrawn back into the bank account in the same session.

----

I'm sure the BetFred AM (Anthony?) will be able to throw more light on why $8.4K in deposits is only $206 rev share.

**slotplayer** · 1 March 2012, 4:40 am

Originally Posted by TheGooner

What this SHOULD NOT be is deductions - because the costs usually show up as a difference between Gross Revenue and Net Revenue (at least they seem to for me at BetFred) ...

But there IS a way that it is calculating correctly - but there is a field missing in order to really prove it - WITHDRAWALS.

There are minimal deposit fees for UK players at many UK sites - often none if they are using debit card facilities - and so that often creates a high churn / turnover level with UK players ...

Money will be deposited, played on, and then the balance withdrawn back into the bank account in the same session.

----

I'm sure the BetFred AM (Anthony?) will be able to throw more light on why $8.4K in deposits is only $206 rev share.

I know I posted in the IA forum asking if there was a way to see withdrawals.

My gross rev and net rev are always the same amount.

**slotplayer** · 10 March 2012, 4:49 pm

I need to see all my players' data. pure and simple.

**slotplayer** · 12 March 2012, 11:23 pm

its not Gross Revenue - its Grotesque Revenue

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**slotplayer** · 16 March 2012, 3:07 am

March Drill down for player # 2251895 (this is the big player from last september that Anthony told me self-excluded). Not really sure why they're allowed to play again if they self-excluded.

I wish I could run an audit myself but I'm in USA.

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**iGamingWriter** · 16 March 2012, 4:03 am

What stand out to me here isn't the revenue generated its the low stake level - in 2 out of the 3 screen shots above the player in question staked substantially less than their deposits (didn't even roll the deposits over once!!) and in the other screenshot they've only wagered through the balance 2.5 times.

If the stake figures are accurate - which given this is Betfred i'd be inclined to believe they are - despite the high deposit and even if these players play games that have a huge house edge, the value of the player is actually fairly low. Obviously variance means that it's rare that the player generates the exact revenue they are expected to - some win, some lose - but the longer they play the more likely it is they'll ultimately lose. These players did not play very much at all.

ThePOGG

**slotplayer** · 16 March 2012, 5:10 am

Originally Posted by TheGooner

What this SHOULD NOT be is deductions - because the costs usually show up as a difference between Gross Revenue and Net Revenue (at least they seem to for me at BetFred) ...

I believe the difference between Gross and Net Rev is bonuses and cb's. You can see it in the screens above.

As I understand it Gross Rev is deposits less winnings, and I would imagine unplayed $$ and the rest of the deductions outline in the first sentence of term 6.3

As you said, without knowing wd's its hard to prove.

The first screen and the last screen are the same player while the middle screen is a different player. The middle screen is the one that wasn't porting the game data over from the Playtech side which they fixed.

**webanalysissolutions** · 6 June 2014, 3:20 am

Originally Posted by slotplayer

its not Gross Revenue - its Grotesque Revenue

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Sports margins are traditionally very low - less than 5%, so you can expect small revenues, but with Betfred I just don't trust these guys' stats. They are just not transparent in numerous areas, and when you see headline numbers like you have it's often hard or impossible to get to the bottom of it - not the "what", but the "why" it's happening.

Our experience of Betfred lead us to drop these guys like a lead balloon (we're still getting chargebacks months on from stopping all promotion!):
https://www.wmcash24.com/forum/activewin...ks-216126.html

In our experience of them, like many other affiliate programs, they're only concerned with affiliates who don't have any issues, and as with a lot of Income Access programs (and this has been discussed on the forums many times before), it's all fine when things are going well, but as soon as you have questions either everyone disappears or no one is empowered to help you, or wants to help you.

What you will find is that ActiveWins are too distant from BetFred to have any empowerment to look into the player data for you and give you answers. I'm sure you've already been told it's "confidential information" etc etc.

On another note on rev share in general, Betfred are a different proposition to most other sportsbooks in our view. They tend to attract players who do "coupon" types of bets due to their types of offers and bets - so either your 50p each way type of punters, or punters playing large stakes but hedging their bets on various things that makes it difficult to lose. In your experience above I suspect you may be getting someone who is playing a small margin strategy on large stakes.

In our experience above we saw far too much fraud at Betfred to make it worth us promoting them. Whenever I see a big depositor appear I always wait a few days suspecting it might kick in as fraud. Quite often the pattern of a fraudster looks like this - big deposits, do their stuff, big withdrawals before anyone can notice.

**slotplayer** · 6 June 2014, 8:03 am

Originally Posted by webanalysissolutions

Sports margins are traditionally very low - less than 5%, so you can expect small revenues, but with Betfred I just don't trust these guys' stats. They are just not transparent in numerous areas, and when you see headline numbers like you have it's often hard or impossible to get to the bottom of it - not the "what", but the "why" it's happening.

Our experience of Betfred lead us to drop these guys like a lead balloon (we're still getting chargebacks months on from stopping all promotion!):
https://www.wmcash24.com/forum/activewin...ks-216126.html

In our experience of them, like many other affiliate programs, they're only concerned with affiliates who don't have any issues, and as with a lot of Income Access programs (and this has been discussed on the forums many times before), it's all fine when things are going well, but as soon as you have questions either everyone disappears or no one is empowered to help you, or wants to help you.

What you will find is that ActiveWins are too distant from BetFred to have any empowerment to look into the player data for you and give you answers. I'm sure you've already been told it's "confidential information" etc etc.

On another note on rev share in general, Betfred are a different proposition to most other sportsbooks in our view. They tend to attract players who do "coupon" types of bets due to their types of offers and bets - so either your 50p each way type of punters, or punters playing large stakes but hedging their bets on various things that makes it difficult to lose. In your experience above I suspect you may be getting someone who is playing a small margin strategy on large stakes.

In our experience above we saw far too much fraud at Betfred to make it worth us promoting them. Whenever I see a big depositor appear I always wait a few days suspecting it might kick in as fraud. Quite often the pattern of a fraudster looks like this - big deposits, do their stuff, big withdrawals before anyone can notice.

none of my players were sports bettors, I was told the player was depositing in SEK and the currency wasn't getting converted.
of course the player self-excluded and then suddenly re-appeared months later, of course there was some backend work done in the mean time, so who knows if the techs somehow re-enabled the player and the self-exclusion was even true or not. They wern't too forthcoming with any info.

**webanalysissolutions** · 6 June 2014, 8:33 am

Originally Posted by slotplayer

none of my players were sports bettors, I was told the player was depositing in SEK and the currency wasn't getting converted.
of course the player self-excluded and then suddenly re-appeared months later, of course there was some backend work done in the mean time, so who knows if the techs somehow re-enabled the player and the self-exclusion was even true or not. They wern't too forthcoming with any info.

My experience too, they did offer to help get to the bottom of it, but since I've given up on them they've just moved on.

Seems strange a self-excluded player can be somehow re-enbabled as this sort of error would pose a massive liability to a business because if a player then goes on to lose at Betfred, and argues that their problem was re-established and they lost a load more money elsewhere, Betfred could be liable for a lot of damages. Self exclusion is a requirement set by the UK Gambling Commission - https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk...exclusion.aspxI have long suspected that the figures represented in Income Access for Betfred are not correct in a number of ways - see our ongoing experience with chargebacks. Either that, or the business itself is not run very well in that fraud is more readily missed, and in this case it appears that a self-excluded player has been re-included. Begs the question, what else isn't thorough and stringent?

**Cherelle ActiveWins** · 6 June 2014, 10:43 am

Hi Guys,

Just to let you know, we are able to see affiliated player data and the team are looking into any concerns you have raised in regards to data. We take these issues very seriously and are here at all times to resolve any of your queries. 

Webanalysissolutions, please could you inbox me directly with your account details so I can investigate further. 

As ever, we appreciate your feedback. If you have any further queries, please drop me an inbox, or email hi[@]activewins[dot]com.

Thanks,
Cherelle

**webanalysissolutions** · 6 June 2014, 11:03 am

Originally Posted by Cherelle ActiveWins

Webanalysissolutions, please could you inbox me directly with your account details so I can investigate further.

Been there many times with various people at your company, and Warren, and directly with Betfred head of digital. Nothing came of it so don't want to waste any more time.

**Cherelle ActiveWins** · 12 June 2014, 8:48 am

Hi Webanalysissolutions

In regards to self- excluded players being re-enabled, we and Betfred take issues like this very seriously. Please could you inbox me with the player details so we can investigate further?

Thanks,
Cherelle

**webanalysissolutions** · 12 June 2014, 11:10 am

Originally Posted by Cherelle ActiveWins

Hi Webanalysissolutions

In regards to self- excluded players being re-enabled, we and Betfred take issues like this very seriously. Please could you inbox me with the player details so we can investigate further?

Thanks,
Cherelle

If you read the full thread above it's slotplayer who has this issue and it's already been quoted to him by Anthony at IA.

**slotplayer** · 12 June 2014, 1:55 pm

Originally Posted by Cherelle ActiveWins

Hi Webanalysissolutions

In regards to self- excluded players being re-enabled, we and Betfred take issues like this very seriously. Please could you inbox me with the player details so we can investigate further?

Thanks,
Cherelle

Hi Cherelle,

the player # was already listed. # 2251895. Look in to it if you want.

March Drill down for player # 2251895 (this is the big player from last september that Anthony told me self-excluded). Not really sure why they're allowed to play again if they self-excluded.

When the player started again Deborah (who has since left) told me this "I am limited in the information I can tell you but it wasn’t a life time exclusion".

**Cherelle ActiveWins** · 13 June 2014, 11:25 am

Hi Slotsplayer,

Please could you inbox me the username and player ID of the affiliate in question so we can investigate this issue.

Thanks,
Cherelle

**slotplayer** · 13 June 2014, 12:42 pm

Hi Cherelle,

I sent you a pm.

Thanks

**slotplayer** · 26 June 2014, 10:44 am

Originally Posted by Cherelle ActiveWins

Hi Slotsplayer,

Please could you inbox me the username and player ID of the affiliate in question so we can investigate this issue.

Thanks,
Cherelle

Hi Cherelle,
any news on this?

thanks

**Cherelle ActiveWins** · 8 July 2014, 3:07 am

Hi Slotsplayer,

I have sent you a PM.

Thanks,

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