Affiliate Lounge going with retroactive changes to TC

**pgaming** · 17 October 2009, 11:32 am

We have a team in house within each brand that only works on conversion activities and ensuring that conversion levels increase, right now we maintain and operate very high levels of conversion within the industry, that we want to, and will, through constantly developed and enhanced new practices, make even better.

Really your team must be very good considering your thrashing against affiliates.

I heard a rumor moneybookers and spam email work pretty good.

What ever you are stealing using words to justify this simply truth.

greek39

**universal4** · 17 October 2009, 11:35 am

For the future we will continue to work with and succeed in bringing small partners in, and help them grow, through providing support, assistance and the brands and products that convert and create revenues.

This is NOT what your term changes does.

Your terms now state:

Convert or else!

Become at least a medium size affiliate, or we take any players you sent away from you and replace you with more new unsuspecting affiliates....

I can not in clear conscience recommend new affilates sign up with your program...and I will have to recommend most smaller and even some mid-size affiliates now stop sending you traffic.

Like Andy said and has been said for many YEARS....if the term isn't gonna be used get rid of it. Otherwise it is a threat.

Why would you want to threaten affiliates?

Rick
Universal4

**kwblue** · 17 October 2009, 12:29 pm

Let's also not forget about the PLAYER STEALING portion of this term:

Originally Posted by Terms

2.1.15. "Dormant Player" shall mean a Player who, after becoming a Referred Player, has not made any real money deposit into his player account with any of the Participating Sites for twelve consecutive months.

Along with:

Originally Posted by Terms

For the avoidance of doubt, once the Player becomes a Dormant Player, he/she permanently ceases to be a Referred Player under this Agreement and no deposits of a Player who has previously become a Dormant Player shall be included in the calculation of the Referral Commission;

hmm.... stealing players and termination of accounts. That's gotta be the worst combination I've seen.

**Betpartners** · 17 October 2009, 4:11 pm

Stuart, i do have an account with you but it is more or less dormant and so if i am honest i can say this will not effect me in the slightest.

That said i would like to draw your attention to the statements that you make in relation to working with your partners.

Cutting through all the BS you say that you want to work with us and so on.

Then i have to ask why did you not consult affiliates, small large or medium about these changes.

If you really care about your partnerships then surely the most basic principle of business communication is to discuss with your partners changes that you are considering.

By doing this you will have become very aware that what you are doing is very wrong.

It is wrong because you have broken contracts, it is wrong because you have at no stage consulted with affiliates, it is wrong because you fail to see that the changes you are implementing are unethical business practices.

What is most worrying for me is that even if you changed your mind and decided to stop these changes that trust has been destroyed with you.

How can affilaites trust you ever again while you behave in this way, what would stiop you doing it again.

Now maybe Stuart you had no say in this and are simply being forced to defend the indefensible and maybe you dont even like whats happening.

If that is the case then it is sad as you will fiorever be branded with this unethical behaviour.

It is sad that Betsson is assoicated with this.

It is also very sad that such a large company as Betsson is shown publicly to have at best very poor management skills and that is another worry.

One will always worry when a company is being run poorly and Affiliate Lounge and by default Betsson are now such a company.

**jarvi** · 17 October 2009, 8:31 pm

Stuart, are my posts written in invisible ink so that you can't see them? You appear to address other people's points and not mine. Unless I just missed it amongst all the marketing speak. But wait, you ignored my question again in the private thread area too.

If anyone wishes to see just how Stuart works with affiliates then check out the sub-affiliate thread in the Affiliate Lounge private forum. I don't usually make my posts this personal, however, as Stuart has refused to give me the names of other people at Affiliate Lounge that I can speak with, I don't really have a choice.

You probably don't want any advice from me at the moment, however, I will give you some. I suggest you ask the person(s) who decided upon these changes, to post here, so we can try and understand the reasoning. Otherwise it just becomes a waste of time and no-one at Affiliate Lounge will realise just how wrong it is to make these changes.

I wish I could see the faces of the affiliate managers at the reputable programs when they see threads like this. They must be rubbing their hands together with glee as they see another program go down in flames and accordingly, less competition for them. And there is a reason they are reputable programs...

**stuartfrench** · 19 October 2009, 6:22 am

Hi,
Regarding contact within Affiliate Lounge we have all Affiliate Managers contact details within AL affiliate accounts, and from outside Affiliate Lounge have our contact details page. There is absolutely no truth in the fact that I refused to give you any contact details.

Further information pertaining to your question in private messages has been requested.
BR
Stuart

Originally Posted by jarvi

Stuart, are my posts written in invisible ink so that you can't see them? You appear to address other people's points and not mine. Unless I just missed it amongst all the marketing speak. But wait, you ignored my question again in the private thread area too.

If anyone wishes to see just how Stuart works with affiliates then check out the sub-affiliate thread in the Affiliate Lounge private forum. I don't usually make my posts this personal, however, as Stuart has refused to give me the names of other people at Affiliate Lounge that I can speak with, I don't really have a choice.

You probably don't want any advice from me at the moment, however, I will give you some. I suggest you ask the person(s) who decided upon these changes, to post here, so we can try and understand the reasoning. Otherwise it just becomes a waste of time and no-one at Affiliate Lounge will realise just how wrong it is to make these changes.

I wish I could see the faces of the affiliate managers at the reputable programs when they see threads like this. They must be rubbing their hands together with glee as they see another program go down in flames and accordingly, less competition for them. And there is a reason they are reputable programs...

**Engineer** · 19 October 2009, 10:53 am

I think Affiliate Lounge must be having serious financial problems -- otherwise these changes wouldn't be necessary.

After everything that has happened in recent months with other programs changing T&Cs retroactively, you'd think programs would know by now that quotas and retroactive T&Cs are a very bad idea.

So, at this point, I think Affiliate Lounge is either (1) incredibly stupid, or (2) in such a financial pinch, that screwing their affiliate partners is necessary to stay afloat. In other words, they already know what has been going on with other programs implementing retroactive T&Cs, and they simply can't avoid screwing their partners because they are about to go out of business.

Pick (1) or (2) -- neither is a program I'd want to work with.

**jarvi** · 19 October 2009, 7:27 pm

Originally Posted by stuartfrench

Hi,
Regarding contact within Affiliate Lounge we have all Affiliate Managers contact details within AL affiliate accounts, and from outside Affiliate Lounge have our contact details page. There is absolutely no truth in the fact that I refused to give you any contact details.

Further information pertaining to your question in private messages has been requested.
BR
Stuart

I'm sorry Stuart I must have missed it. Please advise where you let me know the other people to contact.

**aksana** · 20 October 2009, 2:32 am

Hi Stuart, I agree with the guys, your updated T&Cs is not a good way to increase your revenue, and to build a strong partnership with big and small affiliates.

Originally Posted by stuartfrench

For the future we will continue to work with and succeed in bringing small partners in, and help them grow, through providing support, assistance and the brands and products that convert and create revenues.

How are you going to help small partners? Are you ready to help them with SEO, are you ready to help them with unique content, are you ready to help them with link exchanges? I think NO, and don't say that you will help your partners to grow. And I don't know an affiliate program that can really help a partner to grow. Affiliate programs are interested only in traffic, and if a partner site does not have traffic, or it lost his traffic, lost his positions in search engines, then you won't help this partner, because he/she doesn't bring you traffic, and I understand this position. Therefore don't say that you will help to grow. I don't believe.

Regarding me, I started my portal in 2005, I was a very small affiliate, but I put a lot of efforts that to achieve good results. NOBODY helped me! No one affiliate program helped me and even didn't try to help me, and AL didn't help me, and I understand this position. I tried to promote your brands, I tried to put a lot of attention on your brands. I sent you players, I didn't send you many players, and I'm very glad. But I sent you several big players, and it's much better than hundreds of small players. And now you offer me to bring you at least 5 players that to receive my commissions from my old big players.

Now I work with over 100 affiliate programs, and I trust no one, because any affiliate program can change their T&Cs like your program, and I can lose my player base. Therefore I can't send many players to each affiliate program.

And now I'll tell you a good example from my experience. You know GamingPromo affiliate program, I worked with them several years ago, they also changed their T&Cs and added a new real player rule. Of course, I stopped working with them after these changes. And now regulary I receive emails from Gaming Promo, they ask me to start promoting them again, they offer me very good deals, the offer me attractive bonuses, perfect conditions, but I don't agree to work with them because they lost their good reputation when they changed their T&Cs. And my friend who had been promoting them since 2002, couldn't receive his commissions from his big base of old players only because he didn't bring a new player. I think it's not fair!

Do you want to have this situation with affiliates? I think, NO.
So, please, remove these changes as soon as possible, if you want to have successful future with your partners.

**thepokerkeep** · 20 October 2009, 5:00 am

The terms changes are in complete conflict with their marketing copy.....

From their "Why Join" page:

Why join?

Lifetime revenue
We offer our affilite partners a lifetime revenue share on all players.

What we stand for

RELIABILITY ?Always rely on getting personal service. Full access to your own Affiliate manager who will help you maximize your profits. As we are a part of a Swedish public listed holding company, the demand for transparency guarantees you that your commission is always fair and 100% correct.
VALUE ?You get supreme value. You’ll get one of the highest commission rates in the industry with lifetime revenue share on the players and no negative carry-over. The strength of our brands will of course help you make money even easier.
CLASS ?Affiliate Lounge is exclusive to affiliate members, no matter how big or small, at affiliate lounge we guarantee the exclusiveness and VIP treatment you require.We offer you personal service, real time tracking tools, free content, advertising, detailed reporting tools and much more. We think we are the best in the business and want you to think that too.

**TheGooner** · 20 October 2009, 5:31 am

Would that be the same level of help that I got from Carmel the one time she contacted us with the vanilla line "anything I can do to help?"

I provided a detailed treatise on the complete lack of MIS reporting for Betsson in the new system.

- We don't know what product our players are using (casino/ Games / poker / sports / exchange)
- We don't know what countries they come from
- We don't know what banners they click on
- We don't know what promos they use
- We don't have any player demographics at all

So I provided this to Carmel, and asked "what could she do to help?"

Do you know what she said ?

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Absolutely NOTHING !!

Quality affiliate manamgement there !!!
OK Sarcasm mode off.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Stealing players that are dormant for 12 months - by taking them off affiliate lists - is stupid.

Either the player is gone - in which case you are annoying the affiliate for no gain ....

Or you beleive that you can re-invigorate them successfully with a promotion after 12+ months - Why on earth wait 12 months?

You should be doing at 3, 6, 9 months anyway right? Why realease the player as a free agent and ONLY then market directly once the player is affiliate-tag free? Put yourself on our side - and I'm sure you can imagine the distaste that gives us.

Whichever way you look at this
- the suggestion that this is good player management is flawed
- and spouting the platitude that it's somehow a good thing for the affiliate is a bald faced lie.

There is no upside for the affiliate.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Declaring smaller affiliates "inactive" by creating a new 5-player rule and stealing their earnings is stupid.

And once again trying to say it's "helping" affilaites is pretty dumb. No-one beleives that. If it was your salary being sliced - you would not beleive that either.

You'd leave the company ... and find a better paying one.

I know that one thing that betsson do track are impressions and clicks. Surely that is all that Betsson needs to see in order to determine whether an affiliate is actively promoting the product?

hmmmmm ?

=====================================

Finally, Stuart, you know that these thresholds would not have directly affected our bottom line. We should sail past the low levels every month.

But the unilateral implementation of these quotas, and the changing of the rules, the disregard for the previous undertaking for "lifetime share" mean that now both Betsson and Affiliate Lounge are tarnished with an untrustworthy tag.

How on earth can this new policy be reconciled with "lifetime revenue share"? It's like the company coming to you at the office after 1 years work and them saying that they've changed their mind - the company car was only for the first year.

This is like replacing the original carrot with a manky half eaten brussel sprout!

As such I've taken immediate steps to reduce the level of exposure that we give Betsson on site to minimal levels - as I cannot afford to promote a partner that takes it upon themselves to unilaterally change agreements.

Betsson is still a safe place for players to play - but this flip-flop approach to our business contract means that I'm wary about giving it more than minimal level promotion.

(and even that will be on review pending followup actions that take place)

I'D SUGGEST THAT BETSSON AND AFFILIATE LOUNGE THINK AGAIN ABOUT THIS MOVE ....

**elgoog** · 20 October 2009, 8:59 am

@Jarvi:

Magnus Svanblom
Affiliate Director
Contact: magnus.svanblom @ affiliatelounge.com

Johan Friis
Sales Strategy Analyst
Languages: English, Swedish
Contact: johan.friis @ affiliatelounge.com

Gustav Cuschieri
Key Account Manager
Languages: English, Italian, Maltese
Contact: gustav.cuschieri @ affiliatelounge.com

Andre Nazemi
Key Account Manager
Languages: English, Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, Persian
Contact: andre.nazemi @ affiliatelounge.com

Christoffer Grönlund
Account Manager
Languages: English, Swedish, Danish, Norwegian
Contact: christoffer.gronlund @ affiliatelounge.com

Tobias Sällebrant
Key Account Manager
Languages: English, Swedish, Danish, Norwegian
Contact: tobias.sallebrant @ affiliatelounge.com

Valdemar Hashmi
Account Manager
Languages: English, Swedish, Spanish
Contact: valdemar.hashmi @ affiliatelounge.com

Carmel Said
Account Manager
Languages: English, Italian, Maltese
Contact: carmel.said @ affiliatelounge.com

AK · 20 October 2009, 9:37 am

I'm Disappointed with Affiliate lounges decision.. This is outright theft.

**kwblue** · 20 October 2009, 9:54 am

Gooner brought out some GREAT points, thank you for putting that so clearly and concisely.

To further the points:

Affiliate Lounge's new quota essentially puts them at risk as well. Imagine now that all your smaller affiliates (who are bringing in 1-4 nice players per month) stop promoting you because of this term.

Now imagine your large affiliates who have to worry about this stupid term.

Calling for LARGE AFFILIATES: You have the ball in your court. Force them to increase their revshare enough to compensate for their NON-LIFETIME revshare. Make them pay you 60% now. That's what I would do.

Now - Affiliate Lounge is at the mercy of their large affiliates.

Not smart business

Ever heard of 'the forest for the trees'? Or 'cut off your nose to spite your face'?

Utter stupidity.

**GCG** · 20 October 2009, 11:40 am

Affiliatelounge never did well for me just pennies, a bunch of crooks if you ask me. I would not sent any player to that place again : you WILL get burned, next thing will be that they cut off the affiliate program which is a joke anyway. WYSIWYG ......... do not support the industry clowns even when offered bigger rev.share it won't help you in the long run, move on and dump the bitch.

**jarvi** · 20 October 2009, 12:57 pm

Thanks elgoog.

Would still like to hear from Stuart as to where/when he told me who else to contact.

**Betpartners** · 20 October 2009, 6:32 pm

I was originally going to say that it is noticeable the lack of response or input from the GPWA head honchos on this but then again to be frank it is not.

AGD as usual has been on the ball and proactive and their activity puts to shame the GPWA lack of public action in relation to a Silver sponsor on here that carries the GPWA that has more or less undertaken an action tantamount to theft.

The GPWA have a responsibility here to be seen to be doing something, it is their members that are being stuffed here.

Dont blame us if some start to question who your priorities lie with.

**Anthony** · 20 October 2009, 10:51 pm

Thank you for your usual quick condemnation of GPWA.

Originally Posted by Betpartners

I was originally going to say that it is noticeable the lack of response or input from the GPWA head honchos on this but then again to be frank it is not.

AGD as usual has been on the ball and proactive and their activity puts to shame the GPWA lack of public action in relation to a Silver sponsor on here that carries the GPWA that has more or less undertaken an action tantamount to theft.

The GPWA have a responsibility here to be seen to be doing something, it is their members that are being stuffed here.

Dont blame us if some start to question who your priorities lie with.

**Anthony** · 20 October 2009, 10:57 pm

We will be covering Affiliate Lounge T&C on this weeks Perspectives Weekly.
I hope Affiliate Lounge soon sees how this is a bad business decision.

**Betpartners** · 21 October 2009, 4:56 am

Originally Posted by APCW Anthony

Thank you for your usual quick condemnation of GPWA.

Thats ok Anthony and thank you for your constructive post and insight

Thread: Affiliate Lounge going with retroactive changes to TC

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