Affiliate Lounge going with retroactive changes to TC

**mike76** · 15 October 2009, 5:18 am

Hi All,

Just checked my stats and noticed that also Affiliate Lounge has joined the groups of retroactive changes. Look at the new terms and changes and the way they informed them. Personally I feel very bad if we let this go through!

Major issues:

1. dormant(no activity in 12months) players taken away
2. if player has account with one of their brands - player not credited
3. If you fail to bring 5 or more players in 3 months - you will lose your earnings!!!

At their site on the message box:

Changes to Terms of Use

Please note that we have made a change to numbers 2.1.6, 2.1.15, 6.4, 6,5 and 6.7 in our Terms of Use. This change will become binding in 7 days on 22nd October 2009. Should you have any questions regarding the change please contact your Affiliate Manager or our support team.

Points changed:

2.1.6. “Referred Player?means any Player, not being a Player previously registered at any of the Participating Sites, who as a result of an independent effort of the Referral Company, (1) has been referred to any of the Participating Sites by the Referral Company, and (2) has properly registered and opened an account with any of the Participating Sites, as may be required by the Betsson Group Company operating the Service, and (3) has been verified and accepted as a Player at any of the Participating Sites, and (4) has fulfilled any qualification conditions as may be prescribed by the Betsson Group Company operating the Service, and (5) has made the first real money deposit into the said account, as determined solely by AL on the basis of information registered on the relevant Participating Site’s or AL’s system, and (6) has not become a Dormant Player. For the avoidance of doubt, once the Player becomes a Dormant Player, he/she permanently ceases to be a Referred Player under this Agreement and no deposits of a Player who has previously become a Dormant Player shall be included in the calculation of the Referral Commission;

2.1.15. “Dormant Player?shall mean a Player who, after becoming a Referred Player, has not made any real money deposit into his player account with any of the Participating Sites for twelve consecutive months.

6.4. AL reserves the right to terminate this Agreement by a notice in writing (an email being sufficient) if the Referral Company does not actively promote the Participating Sites. Not actively promoting the Participating Sites shall be deemed a material breach of this Agreement. For the avoidance of doubt, the Referral Company shall be deemed to be ‘not actively promoting?the Participating Sites if the Referral Company fails to get at least 5 new Referred Players within in any three consecutive months?period.

6.5. In the event of termination of this Agreement without any fault or breach on the part of the Referral Company, The Referral Company shall have the right to continue to receive a Referral Commission, as stated in clause 5, for the period of six months after the date of termination with respect to Referred Players who continue to utilize the Service. The right of the Referred Company to receive the Referral Commission shall cease upon the termination of this Agreement for any other reason.. If the Referral Company wishes to resume promotion of the Participating Sites, a new agreement will have to be entered into between the Referral Company and AL; and no Referred Player under this Agreement shall be considered as such under any new agreement.

6.7. Unless explicitly stated otherwise, all rights and obligations of each Party under this Agreement will cease upon the termination of this Agreement. This shall not prejudice any right accrued to a Party before such termination.

**universal4** · 15 October 2009, 11:01 am

I totally hate quotas and think they are completly wrong.

And one point I see in the terms is

6.4. AL reserves the right to terminate this Agreement by a notice in writing (an email being sufficient) if the Referral Company does not actively promote the Participating Sites. Not actively promoting the Participating Sites shall be deemed a material breach of this Agreement. For the avoidance of doubt, the Referral Company shall be deemed to be ‘not actively promoting?the Participating Sites if the Referral Company fails to get at least 5 new Referred Players within in any three consecutive months?/b> period.

That is just plain BS. Actively promoting means just that....not what they have in the terms.

What they are doing is setting a quota on CONVERSIONS not promotion.

So if they fail to do their job of converting visitors, then the affiliate is blamed.

I recommend ALL small affiliates immediately drop them.

It appears they do NOT want small affiliates....they don't want the thousands and thousands of affiliates that can advertise their properties on potentially millions of pages providing them millions of banner impressions unless the affiliate sends them conversions...

I do not think many programs totally understand what these quotas will do to them a year or so down the road.

I am so tired of programs pretending that small affiliates cost them money!

Small affiliates help make a brand and many programs understand this and for those that don't, pay close attention to your actual visitor stats because as affiliates learn this, they will pull your brands off their sites and stop sending you traffic, and stop helping with your brand awareness.

Rick
Universal4

**kwblue** · 15 October 2009, 11:15 am

Good catch... I was going to be posting these terms changes tomorrow, they came through while AGD was down with server issues (and that took all my time, unfortunately).

The actual Terms Changes are:

Affiliate Lounge Terms Update - TAS 800

**tryme** · 15 October 2009, 3:06 pm

Argh. I like Betsson and some of the other Affiliate Lounge properties, but the casual football fans on my high traffic site have little interest in it as a gambling destination. So, despite the fact that I send them the odd player every month or so, I'm going to fall foul of this.

Shame really as I've just developed a European facing odds comparison site and Betsson were going to be on it.

They need to reconsider this and I hope AGD/GPWA gives 'em hell. I'm certainly going to get onto my affiliate manager and make my feelings very clear.

**dutchies** · 16 October 2009, 4:25 am

Absolutely ridiculous. I just phoned my affiliate manager to tell him I was very unhappy with this.

@quota: nonsense, the only casinos who imposed those are either gone or on my personal blacklist. From their perspective I also think this is a big strategic mistake. I would not have started with them if they had this restrictions in place.

@dormancy: this will probably only have a very minor effect on earnings, but I still feel strongly about this. Either they close the account of the player AND we lose the rev share or they keep the player AND we keep our rev share. If they keep the account of the player alive, but we lose our revenue share after 12 months of inactivity - that is just ridiculous.

**stuartfrench** · 16 October 2009, 6:39 am

Hi,
Regarding these changes:

1. dormant(no activity in 12months) players taken away
SF: This relates to a player that has not been active for 12 months, even though we will have tried to re active the client. We are very active on getting campaign and specific re activation bonuses out to players that fall inactive, with the period that we start trying to re activate a player being much less. We know from data that a player that we have not been able to re activate after a period of 12 months is one that we will not see back, on that player account anyway. The release of players means that if they do re register after being removed they can register using the same email, and will then be tagged to the affiliate partner bringing them in, this means more players available to be brought in by new campaigns or activities, either by the partner or directly.

2. if player has account with one of their brands - player not credited
SF: If players are directed to the other participating sites then they will be credited, unless the player already has an account within that single participating site.

3. If you fail to bring 5 or more players in 3 months - you will lose your earnings!!!
SF: This is relating more to the fact that we positively want to identify and work with partners who fall into this category, which we will be actively doing more of now, it is also a value of 5 NDC in three consecutive months. Within AL we want more active partners, and we don't want them to remain as small partners if we can help them, we want to increase the communication and help grow there business, its a relationship that relies on attracting traffic, and ensuring that where you deliver it to converts the traffic well. That said, as an affiliate you don't continue to promote a brand if its not converting the traffic you deliver and working for you relating to your personal targets, you choose what works for you and your traffic.

I will be replying to all the posts and questions raised in this forum in an honest and truthful manner and hope to resolve any differences raised.
Regards
Stuart

Affiliate Lounge Product Manager

Originally Posted by mike76

Hi All,

Just checked my stats and noticed that also Affiliate Lounge has joined the groups of retroactive changes. Look at the new terms and changes and the way they informed them. Personally I feel very bad if we let this go through!

Major issues:

1. dormant(no activity in 12months) players taken away
2. if player has account with one of their brands - player not credited
3. If you fail to bring 5 or more players in 3 months - you will lose your earnings!!!

At their site on the message box:

Changes to Terms of Use

Please note that we have made a change to numbers 2.1.6, 2.1.15, 6.4, 6,5 and 6.7 in our Terms of Use. This change will become binding in 7 days on 22nd October 2009. Should you have any questions regarding the change please contact your Affiliate Manager or our support team.

Points changed:

2.1.6. “Referred Player?means any Player, not being a Player previously registered at any of the Participating Sites, who as a result of an independent effort of the Referral Company, (1) has been referred to any of the Participating Sites by the Referral Company, and (2) has properly registered and opened an account with any of the Participating Sites, as may be required by the Betsson Group Company operating the Service, and (3) has been verified and accepted as a Player at any of the Participating Sites, and (4) has fulfilled any qualification conditions as may be prescribed by the Betsson Group Company operating the Service, and (5) has made the first real money deposit into the said account, as determined solely by AL on the basis of information registered on the relevant Participating Site’s or AL’s system, and (6) has not become a Dormant Player. For the avoidance of doubt, once the Player becomes a Dormant Player, he/she permanently ceases to be a Referred Player under this Agreement and no deposits of a Player who has previously become a Dormant Player shall be included in the calculation of the Referral Commission;

2.1.15. “Dormant Player?shall mean a Player who, after becoming a Referred Player, has not made any real money deposit into his player account with any of the Participating Sites for twelve consecutive months.

6.4. AL reserves the right to terminate this Agreement by a notice in writing (an email being sufficient) if the Referral Company does not actively promote the Participating Sites. Not actively promoting the Participating Sites shall be deemed a material breach of this Agreement. For the avoidance of doubt, the Referral Company shall be deemed to be ‘not actively promoting?the Participating Sites if the Referral Company fails to get at least 5 new Referred Players within in any three consecutive months?period.

6.5. In the event of termination of this Agreement without any fault or breach on the part of the Referral Company, The Referral Company shall have the right to continue to receive a Referral Commission, as stated in clause 5, for the period of six months after the date of termination with respect to Referred Players who continue to utilize the Service. The right of the Referred Company to receive the Referral Commission shall cease upon the termination of this Agreement for any other reason.. If the Referral Company wishes to resume promotion of the Participating Sites, a new agreement will have to be entered into between the Referral Company and AL; and no Referred Player under this Agreement shall be considered as such under any new agreement.

6.7. Unless explicitly stated otherwise, all rights and obligations of each Party under this Agreement will cease upon the termination of this Agreement. This shall not prejudice any right accrued to a Party before such termination.

**elgoog** · 16 October 2009, 2:31 pm

i feel dissapointed Stuart...

if an affiliate would be perfectly happy with sending AL 4 NDC in three months,
but not more
you can terminate the agreement?????
i really hope i did not understand that right, because of my lack of knowledge of the english language....

is it only applying to new affiliates or to all affiliates?

**kwblue** · 16 October 2009, 3:04 pm

Stuart -

That is the same BS that other programs have given when trying to create quotas (which effectively steal from your partners).

Hopefully you are willing to talk about this as AGD will be blacklisting AL very soon without discussions in the positive direction. Sorry for this, AL has been a quality organization for some time, but this type of immoral activity has to stop.

**casinobonusguy** · 16 October 2009, 3:27 pm

3. If you fail to bring 5 or more players in 3 months - you will lose your earnings!!!
SF: This is relating more to the fact that we positively want to identify and work with partners who fall into this category, which we will be actively doing more of now, it is also a value of 5 NDC in three consecutive months. Within AL we want more active partners, and we don't want them to remain as small partners if we can help them, we want to increase the communication and help grow there business, its a relationship that relies on attracting traffic, and ensuring that where you deliver it to converts the traffic well. That said, as an affiliate you don't continue to promote a brand if its not converting the traffic you deliver and working for you relating to your personal targets, you choose what works for you and your traffic.

We have some programs we bring 100'S players a month and some who we may only bring 1-2 depending on where they are.We call these smaller programs 'filler programs' If we need a banner certain size or just want to try something different we may give a program one banner on one page of our entire network of sites we own.
This has to be the most arrogant program i have seen to state they only want to work with big affiliates.Programs also have to earn there way to the best traffic spots.I realise that their current affiliates are now stuck with this retro term and have to bring in the 5 players a month to get paid But for all bigger affiliates or ANY affiliate who does nto work with them -definitely to show support of our peers about to take it up the ass don't even think of promoting those guys

.

Judy

**elgoog** · 16 October 2009, 3:57 pm

of course i did understand it right
retroactive also

**jarvi** · 16 October 2009, 4:37 pm

Absolute rubbish Stuart, although you will achieve your aim of not having the smaller affiliates as part of your program. They won't bother trying to work with you, they will just move on to a program that understands the value of the smaller affiliates for all the reasons, plus others, that have been mentioned in this thread.

If we keep sending visitors and Affiliate Lounge fails to convert them, are you willing to sit down and work with us so we can tell you how to do your job better? It has to be a two way street and based on these changes it is far from that because, as Universal4 said, the affiliates are being penalised because Affiliate Lounge can't do their job properly.

**sparky1** · 16 October 2009, 9:18 pm

Hey Stuart, Congrats on the stupid and unethical move. You'll be pleased, I am sure to know your brands will never have a place on any site we own. Well actually that is not true as you'll be on our list of non recomended casinos and we will be sure to post the reasons why.

Congrats, instead of generating positive threads/articles, you have now gaureented yourself to generate loads of google hits on the negative aspects of your program. I'm not sure when affiliate programs will learn that by pissing off affiliates and esencially trying to steal our revenue doesn't do them any favors.

You'll just become yet another program the likes of Grand (thieves) Prive.

Well done!!!

**pgaming** · 16 October 2009, 10:11 pm

Hi,
Regarding these changes:

1. dormant(no activity in 12months) players taken away
SF: This relates to a player that has not been active for 12 months, even though we will have tried to re active the client. We are very active on getting campaign and specific re activation bonuses out to players that fall inactive, with the period that we start trying to re activate a player being much less. We know from data that a player that we have not been able to re activate after a period of 12 months is one that we will not see back, on that player account anyway. The release of players means that if they do re register after being removed they can register using the same email, and will then be tagged to the affiliate partner bringing them in, this means more players available to be brought in by new campaigns or activities, either by the partner or directly.

2. if player has account with one of their brands - player not credited
SF: If players are directed to the other participating sites then they will be credited, unless the player already has an account within that single participating site.

3. If you fail to bring 5 or more players in 3 months - you will lose your earnings!!!
SF: This is relating more to the fact that we positively want to identify and work with partners who fall into this category, which we will be actively doing more of now, it is also a value of 5 NDC in three consecutive months. Within AL we want more active partners, and we don't want them to remain as small partners if we can help them, we want to increase the communication and help grow there business, its a relationship that relies on attracting traffic, and ensuring that where you deliver it to converts the traffic well. That said, as an affiliate you don't continue to promote a brand if its not converting the traffic you deliver and working for you relating to your personal targets, you choose what works for you and your traffic.

I will be replying to all the posts and questions raised in this forum in an honest and truthful manner and hope to resolve any differences raised.
Regards
Stuart

Affiliate Lounge Product Manager

My first belly aching laugh of the day

nice work Stuart. Anything to rip of those who supported your brand over the years.

Take the money and run fast LMAO your safe in Malta. I will reserve the front page for you at Rogue Online Casinos under Deceptive Marketing Practices.

Still laughing! Hey Stuart why not give us something we can actually sell. LMAO

we want to increase the communication

So do I here it is

too funny.

greek39

**stuartfrench** · 17 October 2009, 1:57 am

Hi,
Regarding some background info, the terms the use and the 'can terminate' clause. This has always been present and in the time that I have worked for AL we have never terminated accounts for minor issues.

For NDC values, and the use of the 'can terminate' phrasing I fully expect that we will continue operating in the same manner relating to the new clause values, as we do for other clauses we have contractually, whereby clause values would not be applied in a manner that is disruptive to both our partners and our business.

I personally feel that relating to the terms changes, they ensure that we will have more active communication and open up new opportunities for working with our existing and future partners, and we will, as we always have, work with partners no matter what NDC value they have (to look at ways to optimise and ensure that we convert the brand or specific product type of traffic that is sent).

For me, its the beginning of a big push to ensure we are much more pro active in helping all our partners succeed, and we want this partner focus to be primary for us, whilst being available for all.

Regarding application of terms of use, the terms of use are applicable for all partners.

BR
Stuart

Originally Posted by elgoog

i feel dissapointed Stuart...

if an affiliate would be perfectly happy with sending AL 4 NDC in three months,
but not more
you can terminate the agreement?????
i really hope i did not understand that right, because of my lack of knowledge of the english language....

is it only applying to new affiliates or to all affiliates?

**GCG** · 17 October 2009, 2:11 am

Hi,
Regarding some background info, the terms the use and the 'can terminate' clause. This has always been present and in the time that I have worked for AL we have never terminated accounts for minor issues.

For NDC values, and the use of the 'can terminate' phrasing I fully expect that we will continue operating in the same manner relating to the new clause values, as we do for other clauses we have contractually, whereby clause values would not be applied in a manner that is disruptive to both our partners and our business.

I personally feel that relating to the terms changes, they ensure that we will have more active communication and open up new opportunities for working with our existing and future partners, and we will, as we always have, work with partners no matter what NDC value they have (to look at ways to optimise and ensure that we convert the brand or specific product type of traffic that is sent).

For me, its the beginning of a big push to ensure we are much more pro active in helping all our partners succeed, and we want this partner focus to be primary for us, whilst being available for all.

Regarding application of terms of use, the terms of use are applicable for all partners.

BR
Stuart

Pure blackmail Stuart no more no less. You force affiliates to convert dep. players not the program itself.

AL is one of the most arrogant programs I have seen whilest if have never earned a buck but have a big mouth about their performance.

I can sure live without Affiliate Lounge, good luck Stuart with your rogue affiliate program.

I wonder what the Gooner has to say about this BS !

**stuartfrench** · 17 October 2009, 2:29 am

Hi
I am very sorry that you feel that the change is seen as ripping off the small, medium and large partners that we continue to work in partnership with.

For brand support, we know our partners work hard, and that both parties play an active role in creating brand awareness and localization which adds value to a brand and aids in acquisition. We will be working even harder in order to help our partners increase and build on their revenue streams, increase the exposure and reach of partner sites relating to the brands and product offerings from the properties we operate, as well as ensuring the sites and media we present are targeted towards any partners demographics.

We also continually ensure that the brands we represent are doing everything they can to convert, retain and re-activate players that have been delivered by partners, we are not in a position where we cant control elements of the brands, relating to partners, as the brands we promote are owned by Betsson, which Affiliate Lounge is a part of.

For the future we will continue to work with and succeed in bringing small partners in, and help them grow, through providing support, assistance and the brands and products that convert and create revenues.

BR
Stuart

Originally Posted by greek39

My first belly aching laugh of the day

nice work Stuart. Anything to rip of those who supported your brand over the years.

Take the money and run fast LMAO your safe in Malta. I will reserve the front page for you at Rogue Online Casinos under Deceptive Marketing Practices.

Still laughing! Hey Stuart why not give us something we can actually sell. LMAO

So do I here it is

too funny.

greek39

**stuartfrench** · 17 October 2009, 2:39 am

Hi,
The business model we all operate is based on mutual parties performing, if we are not able to convert traffic from a partner or an in house created promotion then there really is no reason to operate our gaming sites.

We have a team in house within each brand that only works on conversion activities and ensuring that conversion levels increase, right now we maintain and operate very high levels of conversion within the industry, that we want to, and will, through constantly developed and enhanced new practices, make even better.

BR
Stuart

Originally Posted by GCG

Pure blackmail Stuart no more no less. You force affiliates to convert dep. players not the program itself.

AL is one of the most arrogant programs I have seen whilest if have never earned a buck but have a big mouth about their performance.

I can sure live without Affiliate Lounge, good luck Stuart with your rogue affiliate program.

I wonder what the Gooner has to say about this BS !

**JohnV** · 17 October 2009, 5:30 am

Stuart

From what I can understand from your replies to various posts in this thread, you have said in respect of small affiliates, that AL are intending to increase their efforts to identify and assist such affiliates in increasing their conversions.

Specifically, in you response (No.6) you have attempted to justify the inclusion of a "quota" based term on this basis. Personally, I can't see how the two are at all connected and the identification of affiliates who are referring 5 or less players within a 3 month period does not require such a term or policy.

I do not work with AL, but for those affiliates who have in the past, they have done so on the basis of the agreed terms at the time, presumably a % share for the life of the player. Those players may continue to be active, but if for whatever reason the affiliate chooses to no longer promote AL, marketing efforts have switched focus, or they have simply lost ground in the SERPs you are saying you can now confiscate their expected and contractually agreed revenue (ignoring the 6 month grace period)?

It sounds like a very big stick, without any sign of a carrot.

Finally, I think the argument that despite the inclusion of such a term, that it will not be used and AL will continue with their existing policies is laughable. It is a point made time and time again, but simply put, if there is no intended change to policy then there is no need for a change in terms and conditions.

I hope when AL review the press that this decision is receiving they will reconsider their position.

John

**thepokerkeep** · 17 October 2009, 5:57 am

As one of the affiliates who will definitely "lose their players" due to these retroactive changes, I will be removing Betsson from my sites immediately.

My visitor base is primarily from North America. Most of my players don't recognize the Betsson name so I get very few clicks/downloads for this brand. Your retroactive terms changes will ensure that I will never earn a dime from your company.

I will happily direct my players to other Ongame brands such as Hollywood Poker or Tower Gaming instead. At least then I can be sure I'm getting paid for the few players they get from my links.

It amazes me that companies continue to shoot themselves in the foot by applying retroactive changes that guarantee an uproar from the affiliate community. Did you not learn anything from the recent Playshare debacle?

**kwblue** · 17 October 2009, 7:06 am

Retroactive Changes = Breach of Contract

Any program willing to breach it's own contract with affiliates is not worth promoting. If they want to reach into YOUR pockets after months or years of service to them - then they should just go out of business.

The poor excuses/reasonings like:

'We will never use this term'
OK, simple enough. Remove it, it doesn't do anything

'We are trying to create a partnership'
How does blackmail create partnerships - especially on the shoulders of a contract breach?

Seriously.... we are entreprenuers, Affiliate Lounge, we don't get that way by being completely clueless. We all see through this.

Your best recourse: Remove the recent additions to your terms.

Your other recourse: Make it NON-RETROACTIVE.

Let's be honest here. You are doing this for profits and you want to get those profits by stealing from your marketing partners. Pure and simple. There is NO other reason to add this to your terms. We know it, you know it, your bosses know it.

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